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	<title>Comments on: A Conservative Case for Animal Rights</title>
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	<link>http://therazor.org/?p=1608</link>
	<description>Ockham's Razor - Since October 2001 - by Scott Kirwin</description>
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		<title>By: Ellie D.</title>
		<link>http://therazor.org/?p=1608&#038;cpage=1#comment-97055</link>
		<dc:creator>Ellie D.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 May 2012 03:01:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therazor.org/?p=1608#comment-97055</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thank you so much for creating this blog!   I am doing a school project on animal cruelty and this helped a lot!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you so much for creating this blog!   I am doing a school project on animal cruelty and this helped a lot!</p>
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		<title>By: hohi</title>
		<link>http://therazor.org/?p=1608&#038;cpage=1#comment-96812</link>
		<dc:creator>hohi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2012 05:31:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therazor.org/?p=1608#comment-96812</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[i do love the way you have framed this specific matter.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>i do love the way you have framed this specific matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Sherry Johnson</title>
		<link>http://therazor.org/?p=1608&#038;cpage=1#comment-91506</link>
		<dc:creator>Sherry Johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 09 Feb 2011 19:08:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therazor.org/?p=1608#comment-91506</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Anywhere animals are killed or used as sport or business, you’ll see sociopathic tendencies.  Assembly line killing/factory farming attracts a certain type of worker, and it’s business.  That’s why it’s so easy for the Humane Society or other animal protection groups to gather video evidence of wretches abusing animals.  I&#039;m a vegan and to the right on many issues.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anywhere animals are killed or used as sport or business, you&#8217;ll see sociopathic tendencies.  Assembly line killing/factory farming attracts a certain type of worker, and it&#8217;s business.  That&#8217;s why it&#8217;s so easy for the Humane Society or other animal protection groups to gather video evidence of wretches abusing animals.  I&#8217;m a vegan and to the right on many issues.</p>
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		<title>By: Watcher of Weasels &#187; From Cairo to Israel - Obama Making It Up As He Goes Along</title>
		<link>http://therazor.org/?p=1608&#038;cpage=1#comment-87722</link>
		<dc:creator>Watcher of Weasels &#187; From Cairo to Israel - Obama Making It Up As He Goes Along</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:17:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therazor.org/?p=1608#comment-87722</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Third place with 1 1/3 point - (T*) - The Razor - A Conservative Case for Animal Rights [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Third place with 1 1/3 point &#8211; (T*) &#8211; The Razor &#8211; A Conservative Case for Animal Rights [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Kirwin</title>
		<link>http://therazor.org/?p=1608&#038;cpage=1#comment-87720</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Kirwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:13:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therazor.org/?p=1608#comment-87720</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Whether or not plants are sentient, the avoidance of suffering cannot be your only criteria for selecting what you can or cannot eat. First it implies that suffering is always something that must be avoided, yet women bear children and choose to endure some of the greatest suffering imaginable. Second it implies that suffering can &lt;strong&gt;always &lt;/strong&gt;be avoided - yet life is full of no-win situation where any decision or choice results in suffering (abortion comes quickest to mind). Finally it would allow you to eat roadkill or animals who died from natural causes since their suffering was not caused by the butcher. Yet I have yet to see such scavenged meat marketed towards vegans.

The basis of veganism is philosophy - a philosophy that believes it is possible to thrive without causing suffering to any sentient being, so you cannot so easily brush aside the philosophical aspect of your lifestyle.

One more thing; the Buddha was not omniscient but he came pretty close - at least to those of us who profess his faith. Can he be wrong? Yes. Is it likely? No.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whether or not plants are sentient, the avoidance of suffering cannot be your only criteria for selecting what you can or cannot eat. First it implies that suffering is always something that must be avoided, yet women bear children and choose to endure some of the greatest suffering imaginable. Second it implies that suffering can <strong>always </strong>be avoided &#8211; yet life is full of no-win situation where any decision or choice results in suffering (abortion comes quickest to mind). Finally it would allow you to eat roadkill or animals who died from natural causes since their suffering was not caused by the butcher. Yet I have yet to see such scavenged meat marketed towards vegans.</p>
<p>The basis of veganism is philosophy &#8211; a philosophy that believes it is possible to thrive without causing suffering to any sentient being, so you cannot so easily brush aside the philosophical aspect of your lifestyle.</p>
<p>One more thing; the Buddha was not omniscient but he came pretty close &#8211; at least to those of us who profess his faith. Can he be wrong? Yes. Is it likely? No.</p>
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		<title>By: mijnheer</title>
		<link>http://therazor.org/?p=1608&#038;cpage=1#comment-87712</link>
		<dc:creator>mijnheer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 12 Jun 2009 00:39:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therazor.org/?p=1608#comment-87712</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Scott Kirwin: According to the dictionary (OED in particular), to be sentient is to have the power of perception by means of the senses -- in other words, to have sensory subjective awareness. That typically implies having enough consciousness to be able to experience pain and/or pleasure, and that&#039;s how the word is commonly used by philosophers. There is very good scientific evidence to believe that mammals and birds are sentient, and indeed probably all vertebrates. There is good reason to believe that octopuses and squid are sentient, but the evidence is less clear for other invertebrates. There is good scientific reason to believe that plants are not sentient. So the &quot;rocket science&quot; is basically in line with ordinary common sense. A dog or a cow is a &quot;someone&quot;; a cabbage or a geranium is no one.

Even if the Buddha would say that every one of us is, strictly speaking, &quot;no one&quot;, he would agree that we sentient human and non-human animals can suffer. Plants cannot suffer. If you doubt that, take it up with scientists and philosophers. I think the Buddha was a wise and inspiring teacher, but he was not omniscient, and I wouldn&#039;t blindly take his word about anything (nor would he want anyone to). A good place to start looking for the intersection of science and morality here might be the book Created from Animals: The Moral Implications of Darwinism, by James Rachels.  And you might find this book on the philosophical debate about the  moral status of animals to be of interest too:
http://www.broadviewpress.com/product.php?productid=951&amp;cat=12&amp;page=1
Cheers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Scott Kirwin: According to the dictionary (OED in particular), to be sentient is to have the power of perception by means of the senses&#8212;in other words, to have sensory subjective awareness. That typically implies having enough consciousness to be able to experience pain and/or pleasure, and that&#8217;s how the word is commonly used by philosophers. There is very good scientific evidence to believe that mammals and birds are sentient, and indeed probably all vertebrates. There is good reason to believe that octopuses and squid are sentient, but the evidence is less clear for other invertebrates. There is good scientific reason to believe that plants are not sentient. So the &#8220;rocket science&#8221; is basically in line with ordinary common sense. A dog or a cow is a &#8220;someone&#8221;; a cabbage or a geranium is no one.</p>
<p>Even if the Buddha would say that every one of us is, strictly speaking, &#8220;no one&#8221;, he would agree that we sentient human and non-human animals can suffer. Plants cannot suffer. If you doubt that, take it up with scientists and philosophers. I think the Buddha was a wise and inspiring teacher, but he was not omniscient, and I wouldn&#8217;t blindly take his word about anything (nor would he want anyone to). A good place to start looking for the intersection of science and morality here might be the book Created from Animals: The Moral Implications of Darwinism, by James Rachels.  And you might find this book on the philosophical debate about the  moral status of animals to be of interest too:<br />
<a href="http://www.broadviewpress.com/product.php?productid=951&#038;cat=12&#038;page=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.broadviewpress.com/product.php?productid=951&#038;cat=12&#038;page=1</a><br />
Cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott Kirwin</title>
		<link>http://therazor.org/?p=1608&#038;cpage=1#comment-87707</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Kirwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 15:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therazor.org/?p=1608#comment-87707</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Jainists were 2000 years ahead of Plutarch when it comes to avoid harming living things. Buddha himself was greatly influenced by their traditions but disagreed with their extreme ascetism. 

What is the definition of sentient life - and who gives you the right to define it that way? What about plants? Aren&#039;t they alive and possibly sentient? If there is a line that separates animals, which should not be harmed, and plants which are fair game, who draws it? Obviously a line must be drawn otherwise our bodies suffer because we need to eat - and causing suffering even to our own bodies is still causing suffering. That&#039;s a contradiction that Buddha himself realized after his own experiment with ascetism.

Speaking of the Buddha, whether or not he ate meat is a controversial question. According to various scriptural sources, he did eat meat as long as it met conditions including avoidance of meat from the following animals: humans, elephants and horses (considered royal animals at the time), dogs (considered disgusting by ordinary people), and snakes, lions, tigers, panthers, bears and hyenas (because the smell of the flesh would invite revenge by members of their species. Source: http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebsut034.htm

Source: http://fwbo.org/articles/eat_meat.html
&lt;blockquote&gt;Buddha and his followers did eat meat so long as certain conditions were met. These conditions were that a monk should not have seen, heard, nor have any reason to suspect, that the meat was from an animal killed specifically for him. If these three conditions were met then the meat was said to be ‘blameless’. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

What&#039;s interesting is that according to these conditions, the Buddha could barbecue a steak from the grocery store because the cow was not killed specifically for him!

If you are comfortable pursuing a vegan lifestyle, more power to you. You have the liberty to not eat meat. Where the conflict between conservatives and vegans comes in is when the vegan lifestyle is forced upon non-vegans. As Buddha&#039;s experience shows, meat eating is an issue with a long philosophical pedigree that bumpersticker slogans like &quot;Meat is Murder&quot; do not do justice.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Jainists were 2000 years ahead of Plutarch when it comes to avoid harming living things. Buddha himself was greatly influenced by their traditions but disagreed with their extreme ascetism.</p>
<p>What is the definition of sentient life &#8211; and who gives you the right to define it that way? What about plants? Aren&#8217;t they alive and possibly sentient? If there is a line that separates animals, which should not be harmed, and plants which are fair game, who draws it? Obviously a line must be drawn otherwise our bodies suffer because we need to eat &#8211; and causing suffering even to our own bodies is still causing suffering. That&#8217;s a contradiction that Buddha himself realized after his own experiment with ascetism.</p>
<p>Speaking of the Buddha, whether or not he ate meat is a controversial question. According to various scriptural sources, he did eat meat as long as it met conditions including avoidance of meat from the following animals: humans, elephants and horses (considered royal animals at the time), dogs (considered disgusting by ordinary people), and snakes, lions, tigers, panthers, bears and hyenas (because the smell of the flesh would invite revenge by members of their species. Source: <a href="http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebsut034.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.buddhanet.net/budsas/ebud/ebsut034.htm</a></p>
<p>Source: <a href="http://fwbo.org/articles/eat_meat.html" rel="nofollow">http://fwbo.org/articles/eat_meat.html</a></p>
<blockquote><p>Buddha and his followers did eat meat so long as certain conditions were met. These conditions were that a monk should not have seen, heard, nor have any reason to suspect, that the meat was from an animal killed specifically for him. If these three conditions were met then the meat was said to be &#8216;blameless&#8217;. </p></blockquote>
<p>What&#8217;s interesting is that according to these conditions, the Buddha could barbecue a steak from the grocery store because the cow was not killed specifically for him!</p>
<p>If you are comfortable pursuing a vegan lifestyle, more power to you. You have the liberty to not eat meat. Where the conflict between conservatives and vegans comes in is when the vegan lifestyle is forced upon non-vegans. As Buddha&#8217;s experience shows, meat eating is an issue with a long philosophical pedigree that bumpersticker slogans like &#8220;Meat is Murder&#8221; do not do justice.</p>
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		<title>By: Bea Elliott</title>
		<link>http://therazor.org/?p=1608&#038;cpage=1#comment-87704</link>
		<dc:creator>Bea Elliott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 13:10:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therazor.org/?p=1608#comment-87704</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I have to agree with mijnheer that the killing and eating of animals is totally unnecessary - Therefore it is a perfect opportunity to extend compassion to sentient life.  I don&#039;t believe that compassion is &quot;treating animals as humans&quot; - but I do think it is the ability to do the minimum harm to innocent creatures.  Surely killing them without &quot;necessity&quot; would fall in that standard. There are over 50,000 food items that do not include animal suffering - With that in mind it is difficult (if not impossible) to justify killing cows, pigs and chickens.  If one chooses to do such the &quot;compassion&quot; they show is in word only - not in deed and action.  go vegan :)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to agree with mijnheer that the killing and eating of animals is totally unnecessary &#8211; Therefore it is a perfect opportunity to extend compassion to sentient life.  I don&#8217;t believe that compassion is &#8220;treating animals as humans&#8221; &#8211; but I do think it is the ability to do the minimum harm to innocent creatures.  Surely killing them without &#8220;necessity&#8221; would fall in that standard. There are over 50,000 food items that do not include animal suffering &#8211; With that in mind it is difficult (if not impossible) to justify killing cows, pigs and chickens.  If one chooses to do such the &#8220;compassion&#8221; they show is in word only &#8211; not in deed and action.  go vegan <img src='/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: mijnheer</title>
		<link>http://therazor.org/?p=1608&#038;cpage=1#comment-87702</link>
		<dc:creator>mijnheer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 05:37:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therazor.org/?p=1608#comment-87702</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[All sentient beings (those who are conscious and can experience pleasure and pain) who are at least reasonably healthy wish to keep on living. That is the nature of life. There is no &quot;anthropomorphism&quot; in that claim. As biological omnivores, we humans can choose to eat either meat or plants. The fact that we can survive and flourish on a vegetarian diet means that saying it&#039;s &quot;natural&quot; to eat meat does not solve the ethical issue. As the ancient-Greek philosopher Plutarch wrote, &quot;But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh, we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that portion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All sentient beings (those who are conscious and can experience pleasure and pain) who are at least reasonably healthy wish to keep on living. That is the nature of life. There is no &#8220;anthropomorphism&#8221; in that claim. As biological omnivores, we humans can choose to eat either meat or plants. The fact that we can survive and flourish on a vegetarian diet means that saying it&#8217;s &#8220;natural&#8221; to eat meat does not solve the ethical issue. As the ancient-Greek philosopher Plutarch wrote, &#8220;But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh, we deprive a soul of the sun and light, and of that portion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy.&#8221; </p>
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		<title>By: Scott Kirwin</title>
		<link>http://therazor.org/?p=1608&#038;cpage=1#comment-87701</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Kirwin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 03:26:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://therazor.org/?p=1608#comment-87701</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[ivorydog
There has always been a tendency to romanticize Nature - probably since we started conquering it with civilization 10,000 years ago. Animal researchers are taught early-on the pitfalls of anthropomorphizm, but PETA and the most extreme animal rights organizations evidently aren&#039;t familiar with the concept in the least.

You&#039;ve raised some good points; what&#039;s appropriate for a chicken isn&#039;t necessarily what we think it is. It reminds me of when we were flying our cats from Japan to the USA. The Wife wanted to put each into the largest pet carrier we could find. A vet explained to us that cats feel more secure in small spaces and recommended small carriers. It turns out the Wife was projecting her own feelings of claustrophobia on the cats.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>ivorydog<br />
There has always been a tendency to romanticize Nature &#8211; probably since we started conquering it with civilization 10,000 years ago. Animal researchers are taught early-on the pitfalls of anthropomorphizm, but <span class="caps">PETA</span> and the most extreme animal rights organizations evidently aren&#8217;t familiar with the concept in the least.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve raised some good points; what&#8217;s appropriate for a chicken isn&#8217;t necessarily what we think it is. It reminds me of when we were flying our cats from Japan to the <span class="caps">USA</span>. The Wife wanted to put each into the largest pet carrier we could find. A vet explained to us that cats feel more secure in small spaces and recommended small carriers. It turns out the Wife was projecting her own feelings of claustrophobia on the cats.</p>
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